Thursday, July 08, 2010

Here's a piece of WWII history I hadn't heard before

...He stated that some time between 03 Feb thru 03 Mar 1945 — during the bitter urban fighting between American troops and a combination of Japanese naval base troops and three Imperial Japanese Army infantry battalions of the Shimbu Group — Japanese troops attacked troopers of the American 1st Cavalry Division with hand held and 75mm gun fired chemical munitions.

The Japanese crossed the chemical warfare threshold in World War 2.
...
1. Enemy Chemical Warfare Activities
The Jap Leyte garrison was prepared both Offensively and defensively for gas warfare when American forces landed. Munitions filled With tear gas (CN). vomiting gas (DC) and nerve poison (AC) were found in captured ammunition dumps. PWs stated that all unit from companies up were supplied with toxic munitions, including 75mm blistering gas (H or H-L) filled shells. Captured documents reveal that orders were issued in July 1944, to all troops in the LEYTE area to the effect that special smokes and other gas munitions would not be used without a special order and that in View or the Allies’ preparedness to resort to chemical warfare no excuse would be given them for retaliation. It may be inferred that a decision by the Japanese on whether or not to use gas will be based entirely upon strategical considerations.

To quote somebody, Damn!

8 comments:

Windy Wilson said...

"Captured documents reveal that orders were issued in July 1944, to all troops in the LEYTE area to the effect that special smokes and other gas munitions would not be used without a special order and that in View or [of?] the Allies’ preparedness to resort to chemical warfare no excuse would be given them for retaliation."

But how would they know of the Allies' preparedness or intentions? Maybe I'm confused, but it seems quite a jump from napalm to nerve gas.

Firehand said...

I'd imagine that it worked like it did with Germany; word was quietly passed that "If you don't use the stuff, we won't. But if you do..."

I remember reading of a BIG problem in Italy, a ship carrying chemical munitions was hit in harbor, had a hell of a situation to clean up. They weren't planning on using them, but it was felt that to keep the threat real they had to have at least some of the stuff available, in case. Or so I recall, been a few years since read it.

markm said...

WWI experience was that chemical weapons were pretty nearly useless (in symetrical warfare). The way they were usually used in WWI - as part of an attack - they were actually counterproductive, except for the first few weeks. Even when the gas was a surprise and the other troops were not equipped with gas maskes, the attackers still just gained a few hundred yards. Once everyone was equipped with gas and countermeasures, all it did was handicap both sides. I've worked in CW gear in Air Force exercises. At best, you're going at half speed. Launch CW in conjunction with an attack and your men won't be able to move fast enough to take advantage of the initial surprise and casualties among the defenders.

In defense, CW might be barely useful. It slows down the attackers and throws their schedule off. But if you're launching CW weapons without extensive pre-planning and waiting for the wind to be right, you'll probably pollute your own positions and miss the bulk of the enemy.

In asymetrical warfare, CW attacks can be far more effective, particularly if your goal is to kill babies. (That is, the Russians in Afghanistan.) Against the actual guerilla combatants, it has the same problem as conventional weapons - you don't know where your target is.

It seems most likely to be effective in clearing tunnels - but piping engine exhaust into the hole seems as effective as anything else, and the Viet Cong did find ways of constructing their tunnels to block all gas attacks.

It seems like it could be an effective terrorist weapon, but the only terrorist use of poison gas I know of is the Sarin attacks in Japan - and a couple of guys with glass bottles and gasoline could have killed a whole lot more people.

As for biological weapons, the most effective use overall predates the germ theory of disease - the use for millenia of rotting corpses, animal or human, to deny the use of wells. Possibly the Mongols spread bubonic plague by catapulting corpses into besieged cities, but since rats probably crossed the lines regularly anyway, it's impossible to tell if it made a difference. Ditto for giving Indians smallpox blankets. The best modern example of biological weapons was the anthrax letters. These were effective if the aim was lots of terror and disruption but very few casualties. But it appears that this was actually an attempt by a rogue at a government lab to increase his funding!

markm said...

It seems like it could be an effective terrorist weapon, but the only terrorist use of poison gas I know of is the Sarin attacks in Japan - and a couple of guys with glass bottles and gasoline could have killed a whole lot more people.

As for biological weapons, the most effective use overall predates the germ theory of disease - the use for millenia of rotting corpses, animal or human, to deny the use of wells. Possibly the Mongols spread bubonic plague by catapulting corpses into besieged cities, but since rats probably crossed the lines regularly anyway, it's impossible to tell if it made a difference. Ditto for giving Indians smallpox blankets. The best modern example of biological weapons was the anthrax letters. These were effective if the aim was lots of terror and disruption but very few casualties. But it appears that this was actually an attempt by a rogue at a government lab to increase his funding!

Keith said...

I'm told that the carbonyl chloride (phosgene) used in WWi smelled like new mown hay, and lulled it's early victims into a false sense of calm.

Apparently it was Adolph's own injuries from gas that kept him from authorizing its use in the open in Europe. When I was a kid, the best organophosphorus sheep dips were made by Bayer - probably from WWii research into pesticides for human "pests".

Got to aggree with Markm, gasoline vapour, selected car parts, stuff from an artist supplies shop and stuff from the local hardware and food stores would make far more damage, with far fewer alarm signals to the authorities than chemical or bio weapons.

A few armed citizens in the right place would be an effective counter to either kind of evil.

Keith said...

OT:
The steroid filled bouncer

The cops seem to be running out of stuff to put in news releases. Seems the c#nt has laid more plans and has better fieldcraft than first suggested.

Cops are surrounding Cragside - the country pile built by Armstrong with grounds full of cliffs, rocks and big rhodedendrons.

Their lack of progress with this one really shows what a lie it is to expect a 999 (911) call to save anyone - and the lie that gun laws have a good effect.

Windy Wilson said...

That ship in Italy carrying poisonous gas was in the harbor at Bari, where it was bombed by the Germans. Gas escaped and killed a lot of people. It was kept secret as much as possible by the Allies because of the embarassment of having gas so near the front.
The book you read was, I believe. "Disaster at Bari", published around 1970.

FWIW, the verification word is Batioto, which sounds like it should be an Italian wine.

Firehand said...

I think that was the book! Thanks!