Wednesday, January 03, 2007

Discussing/arguing with 'the other side'

Kevin has a post on the subject of what/how the other side believes on the subject of personal disarmament laws. Takes apart an op-ed in the Philadelphia Inquirer. He got a response from the writer of the op-ed and answered it, and it all made me think of something.

Got a friend who, at a Halloween party get-ready said "I'm in favor of guns, but not some things. I mean, an AK47 is for the army." So I asked "Tell me something: how is a semi-auto AK that I can buy different from any other semi-auto rifle?" And he basically shut it down. Not only no answer, he didn't want to discuss it, period.

I've had several of those discussions(if you can call them that), someone is challenged on a point- very politely, mind you- and either stumbles through a half-response and changes the subject, or flat refuses to talk about it. Sometimes they know that if they argue facts they'll be proved either flat wrong or ignorant(and I use that word in the proper sense). But other times, it's just as simple but actually a bit worse: it's This is what I've decided to believe, and I'm comfortable there, and I don't want to have to think about it.

There's an awful lot of the latter out there. Sometimes it's because of friends/co-workers of a particular viewpoint they want to please, sometimes they tend to see a matter through the PC lens, sometimes it's a viewpoint they inherited and they've had it so long they're just not comfortable questioning it. Whichever, they can be talked to, they can be reasoned with. They may not actively change their mind, but they may well add to it " but most people who have them are ok" or something of the kind.

These are completely separate from those who've decided that firearms themselves are evil and wicked and people shouldn't be allowed to own them, because then all the problems would go away or at least get a lot better. Or that they're just too dangerous for 'the masses' to be allowed to own. It never has, anywhere that's been tried, but they don't care; it is their belief, a (as Mr. Porretto points out in the comments of Kevin's post) religious faith for some, a stalking horse for power for others, and facts that don't match up to it are either wrong or to be ignored; and since ignoring them won't make them go away, they have to be demonized so no 'good' people(i.e., "Those who will do what I think right") will admit to listening to them. Or if it's the 'too dangerous to allow' attitude, then you will hear that we have not demonstrated that the masses, unlike you, can responsibly control firearms." So you might somehow be trusted with them, but the 'masses' cannot be so trusted(and have you noticed the warning sign inherent in someone referring to people as 'the masses'?). Therefore the government has to, if necessary, ignore even the Constitution and control people in this matter(which will lead to others, of course; it's all for the common good, you know).

These people are like those who believe that violence is ALWAYS bad, even when used in self-defense. I've known some of those people, and they drive me crazy: it's hard to believe that a human being could actually believe that a woman using violence to fight off a rapist or robber is as morally in the wrong as her attacker.

Actually, 'drive me crazy' isn't the right phrase, they piss me off is closer. That someone not only believes that, but would require other people to follow that belief, using the force of arms they profess to despise to do it, just flat pisses me off no end. And if someone objects to the 'force of arms' part, that is exactly how government makes people do things: if you don't minions of government show up- armed- and arrest you and will use force if you object. These people, who profess to think the use of violence on others is immoral and abhorrent, both count on other people being willing to use violence to protect them and are willing to have someone else("Must keep my own hands and conscience pure") do violence to force their view on others, by making it illegal for you to defend yourself and jailing you if you do. They're often the same people who give the 'guns are evil' and 'people can't be trusted to own them' arguments. And of course THEY know the One True Right And Only Way for people to think so everyone MUST be made to obey their wishes.

Well, hell, I've gotten off the track, although onto a sidetrack. As Kevin says, we can never forget that the true enemy in this(and yes, I do think 'enemy' is the right word) really, truly believes, and not a word you can say will change their mind. Something happening in their life that forces them to reconsider might- might- have an effect, but that's about it.

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